'One sees he has lived his life'
Interview with Peter Seewald
on LETZTE GESPRAECHE with Benedict XVI
by Patrik Schwarz
Translated from
CHRIST&WELT
Weekly Supplement to
DIE ZEIT
September 7, 2016
Editor's Note: This week, the new interview book with Benedict XVI was published, in which he speaks about his life after retirement.
Here is a conversation with his interviewer Peter Seewald, author and journalist...
Peter Seewald, since 1996, three book-length interviews of yours with Joseph Ratzinger had been published, first when he was cardinal and then as Pope. Now you are presenting the Final Conversations with the first emeritus pope in modern times. Was it different this time?
First, it is a world premiere - the first time in history that a pope evaluates his own time in office. On the other hand, there is here an impartiality and unprecedented openness. These conversations were originally not conducted with the thought of being published as such, but they were to be material for a Ratzinger biography on which I am working. That in itself perhaps makes it something different.
What does this book consist of?[
A small part of it comes from when he was still pope, but the greater part was done after his retirement. Thus, the sessions cover a relatively long period.
How did you find Benedict XVI the first time you met with him after his retirement?
He had become frailer and appeared dreadfully exhausted. It was immediately understandable what he said in announcing his renunciation - that he no longer had the strength to carry out the tasks that the Papacy calls for. At the same time, one noted a great relaxation, like someone in an ocean of calm. And one also immediately sensds the humility and simplicity that had always marked him from when he was a student through his entire career.
From the Apostolic Palace to a retirement home: what’s it like for an emeritus pope?
The so-called monastery in the Vatican Gardens is a very simple residence. For the pope as well as for the lay sisters who take care of him, and for Archbishop Gaenswein…
So, a community of seniors rather than a residence for seniors?
Well, the only senior among them is Benedict. Georg Gaenswein is 60, and for a bishop, he is in his prime. In any case, it’s usually Sister Camilla
[the interviewer may have misheard - I think the right name is Carmela] who opens the door, usually wearing an apron. Then one takes a small elevator to an upper story
[the second floor where the Pope’s living quarters are], where Benedict now uses a Rollator to move about.
What is the atmosphere like during your conversations?
Joseph Ratzinger is very structured, so it always starts out the same way. He asks me how I am, I ask him how he is, and he answers, “Just as it would be for an old man”. And then, we proceed to the interview.
No chatting first, no invitation to lunch afterwards?
No, we have always had to do [these interviews] within a limited time frame. Sometimes, I would ask the nuns, “Could you bring him some water, at least?” But he does not take the time for that, not even coffee.
No worldly pleasures?
My impression is that he really lives today very much in praying and for praying. But one ‘must’ for him is the nightly primetime Italian newscast. His brother once observed that Joseph Ratzinger is a news junkie.
And what about those TV specials that Italian TV invariably has?
When you ask him what TV show he likes best, his answer often is: “Don Camillo and Peppone”
[films based on Guareschi’s novels about a smalltown Italian parish priest in postwar Italy and his work in a town which has a Communist mayor]. He goes to bed early.
Meanwhile, it has been more than three years since his retirement. How is he these days?
He himself thought that he would not live much longer after his renunciation. But he is someone who bounces back. At one point, one thinks, “This is going to be the last visit with him”. Then, with the next visit, he seems to have gained new strength, and he says, in the Bavarian dialect, “Now I seem to have recouped”.
How does he cope?
Recently, I said to him, Next year you will turn 90. Surely you will celebrate that. And he said, “Oh, I hope not!”
Is he wrapping it up?
One would say he has lived his life. I won’t say that he is tired of life, but that he has simply given his all. And one sees he has this yearning to leave for that new world that he has so often anticipated in his thoughts, to be closer to his Jesus. He sees his monastic life further reduced, less correspondence, less visitors, less attention.
But is that not contradicted by this book? To express himself on his retirement, his pontificate, on Francis – this, too, is a political act. Obviously, Benedict had a purpose for this. Why is he speaking now?
Of course, he may now be reproved that he has broken his silence, that he wishes to be in the public eye again, or to wield influence. But Pope Benedict is not a shadow Pope. He has stepped down and has not involved himself. Part of the history of this book is that there should not be such a book at all. My interview partner was against it at first.
Against the conversations or against the publication?
Against the publication. And even I did not start out thinking that such a book would be published while he is still alive. The interviews, as I said, were intended as material for the biography I am writing.
So what happened?
It became clear to me as I was transcribing the interview tapes that this was not mere commentary, nor supplementary, to his curriculum vitae, but that it was a historical document. Here, once again, we hear Joseph Ratzinger pure, without media distortions – even and especially about his resignation. That had been truly an unmatchable act about which all he said were the 20 lines in Latin he read in his announcement. About which legends and conspiracy theories have been woven – that he had not resigned of his own free will but that he was compelled to do so by scandals or blackmail. This required authentic information from the historical person himself in order to put a stop to all this nonsense. That is what I sought to convince the emeritus pope.
How do you convince a Pope?
You can only convince someone like Joseph Ratzinger with good arguments.
What were your arguments?
In the more than three years since his retirement, a reading has crept in that makes me downright angry:
That Joseph Ratzinger had been the wrong choice for Pope, and that the best thing about his pontificate was his resignation. What nonsense!
It belies the greatness of his theological work, his great contribution to the Second Vatican Council and to the Pontificate of John Paul II, as well as the meaning of his own Pontificate, during which he started a lot of the things that Pope Francis is now continuing.
And so it is important that he should, once more, take a personal stand. Ultimately, this constitutes an open access to the message and inspiration of Benedict XVI. I think this has existential significance for the future of the faith, the Church and society.
A condition for its publication was that it should have the approval of Pope Francis. Which he gave without ifs or buts.
[I had wondered before whether the books JR wrote while he was Prefect of the CDF required the formal imprimatur ['Let it be printed' permission] of John Paul II as his superior. Notwithstanding the condition-request the cardinal had made to the pope before finally accepting to come to Rome to head the CDF, namely, that he would be able to continue publishing books in his personal capacity as a theologian.
Normally, a theologian would submit any work to his diocesan censor who would screen it for any errors of doctrine and would then issue his 'nihil obstat' (Nothing stands in the way) for the book's publication, upon which the bishop would issue his 'Imprimatur'. For theologian-CDF Prefect Ratzinger, the censor would have been his own office. Not that he would or could ever have written anything questionable or contrary to the Catholic faith.
Presumably JMB's imprimatur was formally requested for this book. If this was requested after it had been written, it would have meant that a copy of the manuscript was passed on to be vetted by those who do this for the pope. If only for this reason, it could not have included anything remotely negative about the Pope.
But I have now concluded, to my infinite regret, after reading what Seewald says in this interview, that Benedict XVI himself willingly and knowingly said all the things he says about Francis in this book After his insistence on keeping Cardinal Bertone on as his Secretary of State - a relatively trivial thing compared to this - I disagree 100 percent with Benedict XVI for the first time. Not about his opinions of JMB as a person, because those are his opinions, even if they happen to be the complete opposite of my own opinions.
I question whether it was at all necessary to say the things he is quoted to have said about his successor in the way he is quoted to have said them. Which does imply blanket approval for everything JMB has said and done, even if much of it goes against what Joseph Ratzinger had been preaching and writing in the first 86 years of his life. How is it possible that this implication has escaped him and those around him?]
How do you deal with a pope – by telephone?
No, during all the years we have worked together, we communicate by letters.
So you go to your postbox in the morning, and there you find a letter from the Pope…
In essence, yes. Mostly, it comes in a large envelope, in which Sr. Birgit, his closest co-worker, encloses the letter, often protected by so much cardboard, so that it arrives in good condition.
Was there a lot of correspondence to and fro until he was convinced?
It didn’t need an extended exchange of letters, but he certainly thought about it a lot, and must have prayed about it. Of course, he knows that this decision would set off new criticism of him. Even if this would come primarily from those who, in any case, have always been against him.
[Not so. Some of the 'traditionalist' commentators who used to be behind him have now lumped him as just one more lackey of the 'FrancisChurch' they denounce and decry daily.]
Benedict XVI says in the book that he had not expected the election of Jorge Bergoglio as Pope, that he sat in suspense before the TV, like the rest of the world...
Yes, and it seems that even before the new pope stepped into the loggia overlooking St. Peter’s Square, he had placed a call to Benedict who was in Castel Gandolfo, along with his Memores Domini, sitting in front of the TV waiting to see the first appearance of his successor – so no one heard the phone ringing.
[It appears they finally connected after the loggia appearance.]
There has always been speculation about the relationship between the two. Francis seems keen to have a good relationship with his predecessor, and it appears that Benedict, in this book, seeks to give the impression that he and Francis are on the same wavelength. Is there real harmony or is this for show?
No, it is not a show. First, the pope is the pope. That is true for every Catholic and even more so for someone who was pope. There has not been a situation like this before.. Everything that they do together is a ‘first’, for which the appropriate form must be found. Even for seeming banalities: How should one address a former pope? What should he wear? How should the reigning pope and the former pope get along? For all of which, there is no tradition that would set the rules. Both of them are virtually creating the papacy in this century. It is reasonable to imagine that there could at some time be three living popes – one reigning and two emeriti. And Frrancis has said that he too can imagine retiring if and when he feels he can no longer carry out his task.
[Well, he has since thought that over and has now said more than once that under no condition would he ever think of resigning.]
That’s on the political level. What’s it like on the personal level between the two?
I think there is a good personal closeness between them. In the book, when I ask Benedict if he has any problem with the style of his successor, he says, “No. On the contrary, I find it good”.
[Seewald uses the German word 'Art' which, in this context, can mean style or way of doing things; otherwise, generically, it can just mean 'sort' or 'type'.]
In turn, Francis has called his predecessor a great Teacher of the Church, whose spirit “will emerge greater and more powerful with each succeeding generation”. And he has said that he will try with the help of God “to continue in the same direction as Benedict”.
They not only see each other more frequently, they write letters to each other and exchange views.
[And would the views on the part of Benedict express his honest views including anything negative? Schwarz should have followed up this statement by Seewald.]
Benedict speaks openly about the difference in temperament between them. I can also imagine that he must raise his eyebrows at many of the things Francis does. But he likes the elan that Francis brings to his job. One sees the difference in their public appearances. Benedict’s presence is one for the concert hall, Francis is the man for the public square.
There are always reports about intrigues in which the adversaries of Francis wish to implicate his predecessor…
But anyone who tries that will simply be banging their head against a brick wall with Benedict.
So there are no discreet hints, no encouraging nods for the critics of Francis?
No. I am sure that not once, not even to Georg Gaenswein, his secretary, has he ever allowed any word of disloyalty to cross his lips.
In editing the book, was anything stricken out?
No, nothing important was left out. But it is true that we spoke about other things for the biography that are not contained in this book because they would be out of place.
At the end of the interview, Benedict refers to a love in his youth.
Yes, he fell in love when he was a student, and it was quite serious.
What do you mean, serious?
That it caused him serious concern. During his first years in university after the war, there were female students, and he had become a very charming man, a good-looking young man, a beautiful soul who wrote poems and read Herman Hesse. One of his fellow students at the time told me that he had quite an effect on women, which he reciprocated. And so, it was not easy for him to decide in favor of the celibate life.
The book is called 'Last Conversations' – it could also be titled 'The Last Judgment'. One notes how Benedict struggled with what he openly calls his inadequacies. Right from the start, he refers to himself as “this poor little man”…
Ratzinger is anything but someone full of himself. That didn’t change when he was Pope, and it is even clearer in this retrospective of his life.
He says that ‘knowing’ others is not among his strengths, and that ‘practical governance is not at all my thing”.
Self-criticism is part of his self-knowledge, and that is overlooked by many critics. He has never shown himself to be authoritarian.
And that is not just coquetry?
No, I have never felt that about him. I believe that in the final stage of his life, he is truly very clear about himself. He admits openly in what ways he felt that he has been inadequate. He says, for example, that he has not always treated everyone with the attention they may have deserved. And he speaks quite frankly about his other weaknesses or about his physical handicaps…
As in ‘my voice is by nature weak’?
Even more serious is the limitation that was not known to me despite the many conversations we had over so many years: that before he was elected pope, he was already fully blind in the left eye, after a brain hemorrhage and inflammation.
The insight into the papacy that Benedict gives us is very surprising. He says the pope is no superman, that he cannot just change things with words of authority. Is the pope less powerful than the world thinks?
The word ‘infallibility’ has led to many false conclusions. Those who know very little about the Catholic Church think wrongly that everything a pope does is infalible, and that therefore Catholics must be submissive. But there are many things a pope cannot change. Benedict has a very realistic picture of the possibilities as well as the limitations of the office. The pope is not the king. Christ is the King of the Church.
In the book, one experiences in many places a touching personality who asks himself the final questions. Despite this, however, one must ask about the political objective of this book: Is this not also an attempt to protect his legacy, to polish, in retrospect, a pontificate that was shabby?
No, he does not see his pontificate as having been a failure. Of course, it had its problems, even some scandals, from which no papacy has been free, not even that of Francis. Benedict’s central declaration in announcing his renunciation of the Papacy was this:
“I can leave now, when I am not under any pressure”. As weakened as he was, physically and pscychically, as he described it himself, but he was not under any political pressure – because, he has always said, one must not yield to external pressure.
But despite all that, he is really concerned with what his image will be in the history books…
Even a Joseph Ratzinger is not completely devoid of vanity. But for him, this is limited to wanting to be considered at the level of theological discussion in his time. He is not vain in the sense of wanting to be great in the eyes of others, or to go into the history books, or even to be judged a great pope. When anyone tells him that, he cringes.
What is important to him is that access to his work should not be blocked. And his work is not the announcement of Joseph Ratzinger but the announcement of Christ. And therefore, he perhaps feared that unless he gave his final words about his resignation, a shadow would remain to darken his work on Christ.
After so many books, so many conversations with Joseph Ratzinger, what is the strongest image that remains with you?
Perhaps his last evening as Pope. After the white helicopter had flown him, to the sound of pealing church bells, from the Vatican Gardens to Castel Gandolfo in the Alban Hills, he stood for the last time at the window of the residence, waved to the faithful and said, I think, “Good night”. Then he turned and disappeared from the balcony into the darkness of the house. I asked him what he did then, inside the residence, behind the shutters, on that historic night.
And?
Very laconically, he said – and this is not in the book – “I unpacked my bags”. He may well be a great spirit, he may have all these spiritual concerns, but there is something he likes to do, day or night: Now and then, he loves to dawdle.
[Not quite the note on which to end a conversation about Benedict XVI by his biographer! Perhaps a humanizing anecdote but also trivializing...]
The most objective account - because it doesn't conclude that Benedict XVI approves the Bergoglian pontificate 100 percent - that I have read so far about the book is, surprisingly, from THE DAILY BEAST, by its Rome correspondent...
Pope Benedict’s new 'autobiography':
'I was unsure about Francis
by Barbie Latza Nadeau
THE DAILY BEAST
ROME, Sept. 9, 2016 — Pope Benedict XVI has given his final word. His autobiography,
Benedict XVI: Final Conversations, published Sept. 9 in Italian and German, is the fruit of a series of long interviews by German journalist and papal confidante Peter Seewald. The English version will be released in late November under the title Last Testaments.
The cover shows the back of Benedict’s skullcapped head in a fog of incense over a red box, about the same color as his famous Prada shoes, with the words “spiritual testament” and a quote by Pope Francis about how his predecessor “embodies holiness, is a man of a man of God.”
In essence, it is a living obituary for a man who Seewald says is in the waning moments of his long life of 89 years. He is now blind in his left eye and cannot walk unassisted. When Seewald asked if he hoped to see his 90th birthday, Benedict responded, “hopefully not.”
Seewald uses Benedict’s own words intertwined with anecdotes of the long hours they spent together to paint a revealing portrait of a man who can be easily described as misunderstood.
Seewald says that on several occasions he thought Benedict was so weak that he wouldn’t live to see their next meeting. “You realize he has lived his life,” Seewald told
Die Zeit when the book came out. “I don’t want to say he is tired of life, but that he has simply given all he’s got to give.”
Benedict was the first pope to resign from office in modern history, setting a precedent that many feel Pope Francis may follow when and if he tires of his fast-paced pontificate.
He describes himself as a “news junkie” and how he was “glued to the television to see who won” as his successor when the black smoke turned to white during the conclave. In his excitement, he ignored a call from Jose Mario Bergoglio, who he knew as a prominent member of the Argentine church. He was shocked when they called Bergolgio’s name to become the next pope.
“No one expected him,” Benedict says. “When I first heard his name, I was unsure. But when I saw how he spoke with God and with people, I truly was content. And happy.”
“What did touch me, though, was that even before going out onto the loggia, he tried to phone me.”
Benedict is also very honest about his shortcomings and frustrations as pontiff. He talks candidly about his battle against a “powerful gay lobby” of a handful of people who tried to influence decisions in the church.
“We dissolved it,” he says matter-of-factly, though Francis has admitted such a group still exists within the hierarchy of the Holy See.
Benedict also admits where he thinks he could have done better. “My weak point perhaps is a lack of resolve in governing and making decisions,” he says about
the indecision on many issues that has come to define his papacy. [I have to see what the book actually says about that. Can you think of a major indecision? Deciding to keep Bertone was not an indecision, even if, in the opinion of many, it was a wrong decision.]
“Here, in reality, I am more a professor, one who reflects and meditates on spiritual questions. Practical governance was not my forte, and this certainly was a weakness.”
“But I don’t see myself as a failure,” he says. “For eight years, I did my service.”
He has also grown to appreciate Pope Francis, whose papacy has already overshadowed Benedict’s in the three years since he was elected. “He is a man of practical reform and he also has the spirit to intervene and take measures of an organizational nature,” Benedict says of the new pope.
In the years after Benedict resigned, conspiracy theorists have suggested the German pontiff had been blackmailed or somehow pressured to leave his office. His retirement came after his butler was convicted of passing on his private documents to a journalist and after he was presented with a mysterious red binder that reportedly outlined the many problems facing the church. But Benedict says he wasn’t pushed out.
“It was not a retirement made under the pressure of events or a flight made due to the incapacity to face them,” he says. “No one tried to blackmail me. I would not have allowed it. If they had tried, I would not have gone because it is not right to leave when under pressure. And it is not true that I was disappointed, or anything like that.”
In interviews to promote the book, Seewald has also been giving out tidbits that didn’t make the tome’s final cut, including how Joseph Ratzinger, as he was known before he became pope, fell in love with a woman just as he was about to take his priestly vows.
“There was an infatuation during his course of studies that was very serious,” Seewald told
Die Zeit. “One of his fellow students told me he had quite an effect on women — and the other way around. The decision for celibacy wasn’t easy for him.”
One of the greatest disappointments the book reveals is that Benedict’s juicer memoir will be kept private. He kept extensive diaries throughout the time he was the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and throughout his papacy, including the butler scandal and his decision to retire. Seewald says those notes will be destroyed when he dies.
Now that Benedict’s self-reflection has been published, Seewald says the former pope is ready to die, spending his days not dreading his death, but instead “preparing to pass the ultimate examination before God.”