Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but on the major Catholic news-aggregation sites, there is very little hooplah about the second anniversary of this Pontificate, as if somehow the unprecedented tsunami of universal acclamation for Jorge Mario Bergoglio as Pope has died down to human-scale surf waves occasionally crashing into shore with just enough noise to call attention.
And it seems the highlight of this anniversary was the JMB/PF's nth interview, this one granted to a Mexican TV journalist - newsmaking because he reiterates, more or less, what he states a rather dramatic (or melodramatic) variation on what he has expressed before that he does not rule out resigning as Pope a la Benedict XVI. Cynic that I am, I cannot help seeing something calculated about this new statements. Guaranteed to elicit reactions like, "Oh no! That's not what God wants for you! He wouldn't take you away from us when the Church has waited more than 2000 years for a pluperfect ideal Pope! What would we do without you? Just when the Church is finally changing for the better!"
Francis: My years as Pope will be 'brief'
VATICAN CITY, March 13, 2015 (Reuters) - Pope Francis said in an interview published on Friday he believes his pontificate will be short and that he would be ready to resign like his predecessor rather than ruling for life.
In the long interview with Mexican broadcaster Televisa, released on the second anniversary of his surprise election, Francis also said he "did not mind" being pope but would like to be able to go out in Rome unrecognized for a pizza.
"I have the feeling that my pontificate will be brief - four or five years, even two or three. Two have already passed. It's a somewhat strange sensation," he said, according to a Vatican translation from Spanish.
"I feel that the Lord has placed me here for a short time," the Argentine-born pontiff said.
Francis, apparently in good health at 78, said "I share the idea of what Benedict did." In 2013, former Pope Benedict became the first head of the Roman Catholic Church in 600 years to resign instead of ruling until he died.
"In general, I think what Benedict so courageously did was to open the door to the popes emeritus. Benedict should not be considered an exception, but an institution," Francis said.
However, he said he did not like the idea of an automatic retirement age for popes, such as at age 80.
In the 17-page interview, Francis also said the fact he is the first pope from Latin America compelled him to speak out on behalf of migrants and the poor because his ancestors had to move from Italy to Argentina to find work.
"People are being discarded and forced to seek employment elsewhere," said Francis, whose first trip after his election was to the Italian island of Lampedusa to pay tribute to thousands of migrants who have died trying to reach Europe.
Francis, who in the past has called for more regulation of markets, denounced "the injustice of wealth," saying it was a mortal sin to give someone an unjust salary or for the rich to take advantage of the poor.
On the lighter side, Francis said "I do not mind," when asked if he liked being pope.
"The only thing I would like is to go out one day, without being recognised, and go to a pizzeria for a pizza," he said, adding that he missed his days as a bishop in Buenos Aires, when he could move about the city freely.
"In Buenos Aires, I was a rover," he said.
Not too many anniversaries as Pope?
Vatican City, March 13, 2015 (AFP) - Pope Francis marked the second anniversary of his election on Friday by giving an interview in which he says he expects his time at the Vatican to only last for another two or three years.
"I have a feeling my pontificate will be brief," the 78-year-old told Mexico's Televisa channel.
"Four or five years, I don't know. Two years have already gone by.
"It is a vague feeling I have that the Lord chose me for a short mission. I am always open to that possibility."
The first pope from Latin America has hinted in the past that he could retire, emulating his predecessor Benedict XVI, who became the first pope to resign in seven centuries when he stepped down in February 2013.
Francis said Benedict had "opened an institutional door" but stopped short of repeating previous hints he could also resign, which drew criticism from some conservative theologians.
"The idea of fixing an age limit of 80 is not one I like very much," he said, arguing that it would create lame-duck pontiffs.
Francis said he visited and spoke by telephone to Benedict, who lives a monastic life in a former convent inside the Vatican.
"He is happy, satisfied and respected by everyone," he said. "He can be asked for advice and he is loyal to the death."
Intriguingly, when asked if he liked being pope, Francis replies: "I don't not like it," before expanding on his dislike of travelling and his fondness for the comforts and familiarity of home.
Despite that, Francis insisted he did not feel lonely in the top job, although he did confess to sometimes longing for the anonymity enjoyed as the parish priest he once was.
One thing he would really like is to be able to go out of the Vatican one day without being recognised and "go and eat a pizza," he said.
Here is Vatican Radio's English summary-transcription of the Televisa interview:
Pope Francis on his Pontificate to date
March 13, 2015
Migration and drug trafficking, the reform of the Curia, the challenges of the Synod for the Family and the need to make the Church a safe home for all children and vulnerable adults. In a wide-ranging interview with Valentina Alazraki, from the Mexican broadcaster Televisa, Pope Francis has marked the second year of his pontificate by addressing the hot topics that have dominated public discourse since his election to the papacy, revealing details of the Conclave that made him the 265th Successor of St. Peter.
It was the Holy Father’s choice that the interview with the Mexican broadcaster take place in Casa Santa Marta, in the room where the his Council of Nine cardinals hold their meetings and which is dominated by a large image of the Virgin of Guadalupe.
Indicating the image the Pope explained that the Mexican Virgin is a "source of cultural unity, which leads to holiness in the midst of so much shame, so much injustice, exploitation, and so much death".
The interview begins with the question as to why a stop in Mexico was not scheduled as part of the papal journey to the USA for the World Day of Families in September.
- The Pope replies that he thought of entering the United States through the border with Mexico. But going to Ciudad Juarez or Morelia without a visit to Our Lady of Guadalupe would be perplexing for Mexicans. The Pope also says he cannot pay a fleeting visit to Mexico - any visit to the nation and its people would need at least a week and he promises to pay a visit as soon as possible.
The journalist asks the Pope, as the son of immigrants, for a reflection on what it would have meant to have entered the US via such a significant border for the phenomenon of migration.
- Pope Francis responds by pointing out that not only Mexicans cross that border, but people from throughout Central America, for example Guatemala, cross Mexico in search of a better future.
“Today - says Francis - migration is the result of a malaise in the etymological sense of the word, the result of a hunger. The same happens in Africa, with the Mediterranean crossings, people who come from countries that are going through difficult times because of hunger, wars.
“Today – clarifies the Pope – migration is linked to hunger and lack of work.
People are being discarded and forced to seek employment elsewhere.
[Isn't there a non sequitur here? In the past, JMB spoke of old and disabled persons as those discarded by society - surely not the ones 'forced to seek employment elsewhere'!]
“Right now the problem of global migration is very painful. Because there are various borders of migration. I rejoice that Europe is reviewing its migration policy. Italy has been very generous and I want to say that. The mayor of Lampedusa, who is a woman, has put herself on the line at the cost of transforming the island from a tourist destination to a place of asylum and welcome. Which means earning less money. This is heroic. But now, thank God, I see that Europe is reviewing the situation.
[Lampedusa as a tourist destination? Is that a joke? Let's hear from travel agents about the possibilities - even if the island did not have to harbor the boat people at all!]
"Returning to the migration across the Mexican border, the area also has problems due to drug trafficking. Morelia and that whole area is an area of great suffering, where organizations of drug traffickers are not subtle in the least. They carry out their work of death, they are messengers of death both for drugs, and their 'making a clean sweep' of those who oppose drugs, the 43 students (of Iguala) somehow are asking, I would not say for revenge, but for justice and to be remembered.
"And in this regard I wish to satisfy a curiosity: I wanted to make the Archbishop of Morelia a Cardinal, because he is in the firing line, he is a man who really is in a hot spot and is a witness of Christian life, a great priest. But we will talk later about the Cardinals.
[So why didn't he? And on this topic, why didn't he make the Greek Catholic Patriarch of the Ukraine, Mons. Shevchuk, a cardinal, seeing as he has been on the frontlines of a true and proper war of aggression against the eastern Ukraine? Or perhaps Patriarch Louis Sako of the Chaldean Church of Iraq? Especially since for all the hosannahs about his second batch of cardinals and his 'reaching out to the peripheries', he once again did not name any new cardinal from the Oriental Churches.]
The journalist asks the Pope if the fact that he is Latin American makes him feel more responsible for having to give voice to the millions of people who are forced to leave their countries, cross borders and barriers world over.
- The Pope replies in the affirmative. He wants to be the voice of migrants and that his sensitivity towards migrants is not ideological, but it is spontaneous and comes from his personal history and his migrant parents.
The journalist returns to the case of the 43 students of Iguala and asks the Pope how people can react to this difficult situation drawing on their values and cultural resources alone.
- The Pope recalls Mexico’s long history of saints and martyrs and reiterates the importance of committing at an altruistic level to society in order to overcome the country’s ills. The Pope says “we cannot turn away as if the problems did not concern us all and we cannot blame it all on the government or one sector, group or person, because that would be infantile”.
The journalist asks the Pope for a reflection on the proliferation of sects in Mexico and more generally in Latin America and the Churches’ responsibility in the loss of faithful. ...
- The Pope begins to speak of evangelical movements and whether these are these sects or not. What they typically offer is personal contact, the ability to be close to the people, to greet and meet people in person.
He says that in Latin America a strong clericalism creates a certain distance from people. Clericalism in Latin America has been one of the biggest obstacles to the growth of the laity. The laity in Latin America grew only thanks to popular piety, which the Pope says, has given the opportunity to lay people to be creative and free, through worship, processions etc... But organizationally, the laity has not grown enough and has not grown because of a clericalism that creates distance.
Returning to the question, the Pope makes a distinction between honest and good evangelical movements and those that are considered sects. For example, there are proposals that are not religious and Christian evangelicals also reject them. There are sects - some originate from the theology of prosperity - that promise a better life and, although they appear animated by great religious spirit, eventually they ask for money. You cannot generalize - says the Pope - but you have to evaluate each case.
The Pope also speaks of “disastrous” homilies as another reason for the flight of Catholics. "I do not know if they are the majority - but they do not reach the heart. They are lessons in theology and are abstract or long and this is why I devoted so much space to them in
Evangelii Gaudium. [Hmmm... I wonder how many priests ever give 'lessons in theology' in their homilies? And one must think very hard indeed whether the Casa Santa Marta homilettes are the kind that 'reach the heart' at all. The totally idiosyncratic Bergoglian interpretations of the Mass readings (i.e,. of Scripture) are often too far-fetched and rather incoherent, so that along with the insulting associations he brings to these interpretations, the mind puts on the brakes quickly, and effectively keeps the words from entering any farther - much less to the heart!]
"Typically evangelicals are close to the people, they aim for the heart and prepare their homilies really well.
[Does it look like the Casa Santa Marta homilettes are prepared 'really well'???] I think we have to have a conversion in this.
The Protestant concept of the homily is much stronger than the Catholic. It’s almost a sacrament". [Not having listened to any Protestant sermons at all - even if the house I grew up in was next to a Methodist church - I am unable to express an opinion about that sweeping commendation of Protestant homilies. But since JMB/PF is not exactly known for precision and exactness in his speech, I cannot take his word for it either.]
In conclusion, the Pope says that
the flight of Catholics is caused by distance, clericalism, boring homilies as opposed to closeness, work, integration, the burning word of God.
[I take it we ought to consider the Casa Santa Marta homilettes as 'the burning Word of God'????] And it is a phenomenon that affects not only the Church but also the evangelical communities.
[I certainly hope Massimo Introvigne - ueber-normalist, FOF and sociologist of religions - takes on this superficial and again quite idiosyncratically Bergoglian 'analysis' of why Catholics have been leaving the Church!]
The Pope concludes his discussion by citing the importance of the work undertaken between the Church and evangelical pastors in Buenos Aires.
The journalist asks the Pope to speak about what happened that day two years ago when he was elected to the Chair of Peter.
- The Pope replies that he had come to Rome carrying only a small suitcase, as he never believed that he would be elected Pope, and would return to resume duties for Holy Week. He was convinced he would return to Buenos Aires for Palm Sunday, so much so, that he had already prepared the homily, and had arrived with the minimum necessary thinking it would be a very short Conclave.
He was not on any list of eligible candidates and neither had the thought entered his mind. In fact, in London bookies had ranked his name in 42nd and 46th place. Yet an acquaintance as a joke, bet on him and did very well.
As for voting, the Pope said that the journalists only considered him a great elector, at most he would indicate a name, and so they didn’t bother him much. Then there was the first vote, on Tuesday night, then the second and the third Wednesday morning before lunch.
“The phenomenon of a conclave vote is interesting. There are very strong candidates. But many people do not know who to vote for. So six, seven, names are chosen that are a kind of depository, while people wait to see who to definitively vote for. This is how people vote when the group is large. I was not the recipient of definitive votes, but provisional ones, yes”.
The journalist asks if it is true that in the previous conclave he had obtained forty votes...
- The Pope immediately responds no. She insists on the point saying that others say so. The Pope replies: They say so, not me.
A cardinal said so, says the journalist. [She is obviously referring to the much-cited October 2005 article purporting to report an unnamed cardinal's account of the April 2005 Conclave, which was an attempt to 'downgrade' Joseph Ratzinger's election by claiming he was elected by only a few votes beyond the required two-thirds majority.]
- "Well let the Cardinal say what he wants. I too can speak because now I have the authority to speak, but let the cardinal have his say [about 2005]. Really, until that afternoon [March 13, 2013), nothing. And then something happened, I do not know what. In the room I saw some strange signs, but ... They asked me about my health ... and stuff. And when we came back in the afternoon the cake was already in the oven. In two votes it was all over. It was a surprise even for me.
"In the first vote of the afternoon when I realized the situation may be irreversible, next to me - and I want to speak about this because of our friendship – was Cardinal Hummes, a towering figure. At his age, he is the delegate of the Bishops' Conference for the Amazon and is very active pastorally.
"Halfway through the first vote of the afternoon – because there were two - when we saw what was happening, he was right beside me telling me not to worry, this is how the Holy Spirit works. That amused me. After the second vote when the two-thirds majority was reached, there was applause, there is always applause at this point in the conclaves, so he kissed me and told me not forget the poor, and this phrase began to go round in my head, and that's what led me to my choice of name.
[I always wondered why Hummes found it necessary to remind his friend about the poor, and now JMB reconfirms that it was the reminder which made him choose his pontifical name - he did have to be reminded then???]
"During the vote I was praying the rosary, I usually pray three rosaries daily, and I felt great peace, almost to the point of insentience. The very same when everything was resolved, and for me, this was a sign that God wanted it, great peace. From that day to this I have not lost it. It is 'something inside’ - it is like a gift.
"I do not know what happened next. They made me stand up. They asked me if I agreed. I said yes. I do not know if they made me swear on something, I forget. I was at peace. I went to change my vestments. And I went out and I wanted to go first to greet Cardinal Diaz, who was there in his wheelchair, and after that, I greeted the other cardinals. Then I asked the vicar of Rome and Cardinal Hummes to accompany me. Something that was not planned in the protocol.
"Then we went to pray in the Pauline Chapel, while Card. Tauran announced my name. Afterwards, I came out and I did not know what to say. And you are the witnesses of everything else. I deeply felt that a minister needs the blessing of God, but also that of his people. I did not dare to ask the people to bless me. I simply said: pray that God may bless me through you. But it came out spontaneously, also my prayer for Benedict. "
Do you like being Pope?
- "I do not mind!"
What do you like or do not like about being the Pope? Or do you like everything?
- "The only thing I would like is to go out one day, without being recognized, and go to a pizzeria for a pizza."
That would be nice
- No, I say this as an example. In Buenos Aires I was a rover. I moved between parishes and certainly this habit has changed... it has been hard work to change. But you get used to it. You find a way to get around: on the phone, or in other ways ... "
The journalist asks the Pope about the fact that he has often said his would be a short pontificate and often refers to the possibility of dying of old age ...
- "I have the feeling that my Pontificate will be brief: 4 or 5 years; I do not know, even 2 or 3. Two have already passed. It is a somewhat vague sensation.
Maybe it's like the psychology of the gambler who convinces himself he will lose so he won’t be disappointed and if he wins, is happy. I do not know. But I feel that the Lord has placed me here for a short time, and nothing more ... But it is a feeling. I always leave the possibility (to programs) open ".
You also told us that will follow the example of Pope Benedict ... This changes a bit 'the idea of the papacy, because we used that the pope was an institution created by the Holy Spirit and to the death.
- "There were some cardinals who prior to the conclave, in the general congregations, probed the very interesting, very rich theological problem. I think that what Pope Benedict did has been to open a door. 60 years ago there were no emeritus bishops. And now we have 1400. They came to the idea that a man after 75, or close to that age, cannot carry the weight of a particular church.
"In general I think what Benedict so courageously did was to open the door to the Popes emeritus. Benedict should not be considered an exception, but an institution. Maybe he will be the only one for a long time, maybe he will not be the only one. But an institutional door has been opened. Today the Pope Emeritus is no longer a rarity since a door for him to exist as a figure has been opened".
Can you imagine a situation where a Pope retires at 80 as is the case with bishops?
- "I can. However, I do not really like the idea of an age limit. Because I believe that the Papacy is a kind of last instance. It is a special grace. For some theologians the Papacy is a sacrament. The Germans are very creative in all these things. I do not think so, but I want to say that it is something special. To say that one is in charge up to 80 years, creates a sensation that the pontificate is at it’s end and that would not be a good thing. Predictability.
"I would not support the idea of putting an age limit on it, but I share the idea of what Benedict did. I saw him the other day at the Consistory. He was happy, content. Respected by all. I visit him. Every so often I speak with him on the phone. As I said, it's like having a wise grandfather at home. One can seek advice. Loyal to the death.
"I do not know if you remember when we parted February 28 in the Clementine Hall, he said, my successor is among you, I promise loyalty, fidelity and obedience. And he does. A Man of God".
The journalist asks the Pope about the reform of the Curia and whether it is a purely technical process or whether it is more a question of mentality, of heart ...
- The Pope replies that all change begins in the heart, but it is also a conversion in one’s way of life.
And speaking of the Curia he says: "I think this is the last court that remains in Europe. The others have been democratized, even the most classic among them. There is something in the papal court that maintains a somewhat atavistic tradition. And I do not say this in a derogatory way, it is a question of culture. This must be changed, the appearance of a court can be maintained, while being a working group at the service of the Church. At the service of the bishops".
Recalling all the questions that raised moral and ethical issues in the Vatican (Vatileaks etc…)
he argues that there is a need for a conversion on a personal level and that it must begin with the Pope himself to remedy the situation. [A classically 'mindless' Bergoglian statement, which implies that the 'Pope of Vatileaks' somehow did nothing 'to remedy the situation' - i.e., the moral and ethical questions raised about the Vatican!]
On the topic of the Synod for the family the journalist asks the Pope whether he will promote changes in the field of communion for divorced and remarried, and on homosexuality.
-
The Pope responds by arguing that there are enormous expectations. [Classic sidestepping without answering the question! It's really all playing coy, since we know what he practised in Buenos Aires, and we know he called the 'family synods' to get synodal consensus in favor of specific 'pastorally lenient' practices.]
As for the Synod and the choice of the theme, Francis retraces the steps that led to the formulation of the synod topic, mainly because of the serious difficulties that the family is experiencing in society, and in particular among younger generations. Reflecting on the crisis of the family,
the Pope said he believes that the Lord wants us to address some specific problems: marriage preparation, support for cohabiting couples [Isn't it the duty of the Church to lead them into marriage instead of 'supporting' cohabitation???], accompanying newlyweds,
support for those who have failed marriages, and new unions. [Note how artfully he has woven in his three pet issues into the statement: cohabiting couples, remarried divorcees (failed marriages), and 'new unions' (which I suppose would describe same-sex coupling!) At least, he is being candid here, even through his dissembling.] The importance of understanding the sacrament of marriage to prevent many marriages becoming more a social event rather than one of faith.
On the issue of child abuse and zero tolerance of the phenomenon.
- The Pope replies that the Commission [for the Protection of Minors, which he set up in 2013] is not about abuse but for the protection of minors. That is, prevention. The problem of abuse is a grave one, with most cases of abuse occurring in the family sphere or involving other people who are known to them. Even one priest committing abuse is sufficient reason to mobilize all structures of the Church to confront the problem. Indeed, it is a priest’s duty to nurture a little boy or girl in holiness and in their encounter with Jesus, and what they [abusers] do is destroy this encounter with Jesus.
Francis talks about the importance of listening to victims and speaks of his experience of meeting with 6 survivors of abuse in the Vatican.
[And Benedict XVI met with victims in the USA, Malta, the UK, and Germany.] The Pope says the interior destruction that they experience is devastating, and even one priest who is guilty is enough to make us all ashamed and commit to doing all that is possible.
Pope Francis also acknowledges Benedict XVI’s courage in publicly stating it is a crime to destroy an innocent creature with such actions and Pope Saint John Paul II’s in having started the work of reporting such crimes.
[Quite a striking minimalization of Benedict XVI's pioneering, seminal, groundbreaking and foundational work to combat this shameful scourge in the Church! I certainly hope JMB said more about B16's work in the full interview!]