Here is an excellent interview with Cardinal Tong of Hong Kong, whose outlook on the Church in China appears to be more positive and less belligerent than his predecessor as ARchbishop of HongKong, Caridnal Joseph Zen Ze-kiun.
New cardinal from Hong Kong:
'Vatican and China can reach
a win-win accord'
Cardinal John Tong Hon, who, in 1993, guided Cardinal Ratzinger around Hong Kong,
talks about Sino-Vatican relatioand believes both sides can reach a mutually beneficial
agreement through dialogue
Interview by Gerard O'Connell
Published in two parts
March 9 and March 13, 2012
Cardinal Tong at a Hong Kong news conference after he returned from the consistory.
Cardinal John Tong Hon, the seventh Chinese cardinal in the history of the Church, speaks of his childhood in mainland China in the first part of a long interview granted to me in Rome during the consistory.
Here he talks about his first official visit to Beijing in 1985, his moderate approach to the Communist Government there, his belief that “the future is bright” and “that the Chinese Catholic Church will one day enjoy full freedom”. In the second part of the interview, he talks about the relation between the Holy See and China.
[Biographical data about Cardinal Tong: Born in Hong Kong 31 July 1939; ordained priest 6 January 1966; appointed Vicar General of the Diocese 1992; ordained bishop 9 December 1996; appointed Coadjutor Bishop of Hong Kong 30 January 2008; installed as Bishop of Hong Kong 16 April 2009; elevated to Cardinal 18 February 2012.]
Were you surprised to be made cardinal?
Yes, very surprised. I found out less than one day before the Holy Father made the announcement. The representative of the Holy See called me just after dinner, 24 hours before that. He informed me of this news and said he would send a written message to communicate in a more formal way. He asked me to put my response in writing.
You had to say ‘Yes’ in writing?
Yes. I wrote a very short note to the Holy Father saying that after receiving this message, I felt unworthy and yet grateful. I said I do not consider this a credit to me but rather as a sign of his great love and concern for the Church in China and a great encouragement for the Diocese of Hong Kong, encouraging us to make greater efforts to play our Bridge Church role between the Church in China and the Universal Church. I pledged to do my utmost to fulfill this role.
What steps can you take now as a cardinal in this direction?
I have been doing this kind of work already for over 30 years.I was born in Hong Kong. When the Japanese invaded Hong Kong, my family first went to Macau, and then moved to Guangzhou in southern China. To safeguard my life my parents left me to stay with my grandma in a village outside of Guangzhou
[still popularly called Canton outside China].
After the Second World War, my father got a job in Guangzhou, and therefore I pursued my primary school education there. But very soon, the Communists came and established their regime in the whole of China on October 1, 1949. So I know China to a certain degree.
So you spent your childhood in China?
Almost ten years! From two to eleven and a half.
Where and when were you baptized?
I was baptized in Guangzhou at eight years old. My mother had received her education under the Canossian Sisters in Hong Kong, and had a very good impression of the Sisters. She had experienced some considerable difficulties during the Second World War and after the war she finally decided to learn catechism and receive baptism, so she brought me along too. My father was baptized one year later.
You attended primary school in Guangzhou. What memory do you have of your school years there?
I began school there. When the Communists took over China, right away they made a very strong campaign for patriotism. Therefore, all the students in all the cities were mobilized to go out to dance. I was considered one of the good students in the school, so I always felt very proud to be chosen with other students selected by the Principal and other teachers, to dance on the streets, to join parades, and also to wash the army clothes for those soldiers who fought in the Korean War. I felt it was a kind of glory for myself, and the students and teachers would look at me as a good boy.
More importantly, before the Communists started their regime in China many wounded soldiers came down from the north to the southern part of China, I saw the suffering of the people and the love of the parish priest, giving emphatic expression to our Catholic doctrine which is to love all people, but especially those people in need. That’s the impression I gained and thus my vocation was inspired.
And you have carried that impression through to this day.
I hope so. From time to time I received some messages from China, even though I was in the minor seminary in Macau. In 1950s, many Catholics from China found their way to come out, and we as Catholics from Guangzhou gathered together once a month, to exchange information, and to keep our friendship, therefore I still could get some information about the situation in China.
Even when I was in the Regional Seminary in Hong Kong, we still gathered from time to time in Our Lady of Lourdes Parish where Fr Rene Chevelier MEP was parish priest. He had been a missionary in Guangzhou and took care of the lepers but was later expelled from the mainland and became parish priest in that parish, and showed fatherly love and taught the people as a good pastor.
What particular memory do you retain from those years in Guangzhou?
The great love of the missionaries in Guangzhou and of my grandma towards me. So when I was in minor seminary in Macau, I heard the news of the death of my grandma and I cried a lot. I was 13 or 14 years old. The older seminarians consoled me. That was a very fresh memory.
Then you studied in Rome - where you were ordained priest by Pope Paul VI in 1966, and later at the Chinese University in Hong Kong, and after teaching for some years in the seminary Bishop (later Cardinal) Wu, appointed you as head of the Holy Spirit Study Centre. You were close to Cardinal Wu?
Yes. I can tell you that sometimes he asked me to draft his pastoral letters. Of course he was a person who was very careful for his own writings, and therefore made a lot of corrections on my drafts.
So you are like him!
Yes! (laughs).
In 1985 Bishop Wu was invited for the first time by the Chinese authorities to visit the mainland, and he asked you to accompany him to Beijing and Shanghai.
Right. We were five in all: Bishop Wu, Father Michael Yeung then head of Communications, Dr. Joyce Chang who was a social worker for Caritas, and Dr. John Chen who was an outstanding educator, and myself.
At that time Bishop (later Cardinal) Ignatius Kung Pin-mei was in prison, and you wanted to meet him but couldn’t.
Yes, we wanted to. Actually we knew they wouldn’t really allow us, but we wanted to put them to the test. They asked us where we wanted to visit, and we said Shanghai. They allowed us to go to Shanghai, and asked us whom we wanted to visit there. We said Bishop Kung and they were so shocked and later said, “It’s not the right time yet”. Then we knew, we had tested the waters.
You were on that first delegation to Beijing shortly after Britain and China signed the agreement for the handover of Hong Kong. Did you negotiate then with the Chinese prior to the handover?
We did not negotiate. We exchanged ideas and shared views.
On that first visit to Beijing with Bishop Wu you met senior officials of the Religious Affairs Bureau, the United Front Department and the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office. What did you learn from your talks with the Chinese then?
Well they always have been quite cautious. On the one hand they were open, but on the other hand they were also very reserved. Some experts say such attitudes are due to the fact that we are not talking to the top persons; these are not the high-ranking officials and therefore they cannot make any breakthrough.
This has been the case almost ever since when Vatican delegations meet their Chinese counterparts.
Yes.
It is well known that the Chinese authorities use what is known as ‘the bird-cage policy’, not only on religion but on almost everything else too. They give you freedom, but only within the cage, only in a restricted way. So the Vatican’s position has been to try to expand the cage.
AYes, let us enlarge it. I always take an optimistic attitude. I take a moderate approach towards the Communist Government because looking back over the full history of China from the beginning (from October 1, 1949), I can describe it with three models, as follows:
After the Communists took over China in 1949, they engaged in persecution; wanted to destroy religions and kick religious believers out from the country or change their minds. That was the “Model A”.
After Deng Xiaoping came to power in 1978, they made a great change, opening up to the outside world. The Chinese government started using the policy of tolerance in the treatment of religion and religious believers. That’s the “Model B”. Compared with the Model A they have already changed a lot.
As for the “Model C”, I would say that outside the mainland, including Hong Kong and Macau, people generally are enjoying full freedom. So those who are living in the Model C would not be satisfied with the situation in Model B. They really want to see a quick change in China; they want to offer salvation for those religious believers, particularly for our brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church because they still suffer from restrictions and suffer from manipulations.
But if you look at them from 1949 until today, you can see that they are already living in the middle (of this journey from Model A to Model C).
I agree with one of the very highly respected bishops inside China who said, “Like all other Communist countries the Government in China also wants to control the Church, and therefore uses some nominal Catholics to set up “a structure” to control the Church, which is the Patriotic Association”.
But the Holy Father in his Letter in 2007 said the Patriotic Association is “incompatible” with our Catholic doctrine and with our Catholic structure, because the members of “that structure” enjoy powers over the bishops in China which is incompatible with our Catholic faith, but that is what is happening in China.
The same bishop predicted that the Chinese Catholic Church will enjoy real freedom one day, but maybe not in the near future nor in the very distant future. I too believe the future is bright, and we can have the hope that the Chinese Catholic Church will one day enjoy full freedom as we are enjoying it nowadays outside (the mainland).
So you are confident they will reach “Model C”.
That is my hope. Yes! I think that with the communications techniques and also with the increasing permission offered to Chinese people, particularly those who are doing business inside China and outside it, their eyes are open, and so I think China has to be changed otherwise the regime cannot be maintained.
However, as outsiders, although we want China to move faster than it is doing right now, we do not want to see any chaotic situation happen to China. That would be disaster not only for China itself, but for the whole world too. So I think the gradual move would be a healthy way of moving ahead.
In this second part of the interview given to me, Cardinal Tong speaks about the struggle between China and the Holy See over the nomination of bishops and shares his conviction that it is possible for both sides to achieve real “win-win” solutions to the problems between them. He talks too about the love of John Paul II and Benedict XV for China and the Church in China, and his own wish to visit the mainland.
How do you think the Holy See should be approaching China today? I ask you this because you have participated in discussions in the high councils of the Church on this question for many years, and now you are an adviser to the Pope.
I am only a small potato! In any case, I hope that both sides would be patient and maintain to be open to each other, listening to the other side so that they can have a deeper and more fruitful dialogue. That is what we need. Then, of course, it is up to our superiors how to decide, and also up to God to make such a final decision.
For many years the Holy See and China have been trying to reach an accord on the appointment of bishops. One reason for the failure to reach this is that Beijing can, whenever it likes, ordain a candidate as bishop even if the Vatican considers the man totally unsuitable and has explained all this to them. In such a situation the Vatican is powerless to prevent such an ordination. How do you break that impasse?
On our side, I think education and formation are still very important. Ongoing formation for the seminarians and the priests inside China is also very important. On the one hand there is a push from the Government to make such an unacceptable person to be a bishop, but on the other hand if the priests and the Catholics inside China are well trained and receive a good formation, then they should have the strength to resist such a temptation. Even if a man is pushed by the Government to be a bishop candidate, the person himself plays a very important role.
But when the candidate chosen is a weak man who cannot resist the pressure or temptation given by the Chinese Government, what does the Vatican do, does it excommunicate him?
I think the Holy See was pushed into that corner last year, but the important thing is the preventive formation, and we have to emphasize this. I was formator in the seminary for a long time, and we always emphasized that when a man is ordained priest, he is not just ordained as an individual to serve the Church, he is also accepted into the college of priests.
When the Second Vatican Council talked about the bishop, it said he is enrolled into the college of bishops because Jesus did not select one apostle, but established twelve apostles, which means a team.
The priesthood was established as assistance to the bishops, when the Church developed more widely and the individual bishop, the successor of the apostles, could not take care of the whole diocese, the priests were developed but the same kind of spirit of a college was still maintained.
So formation of priests is of the utmost importance, but they should be formed not only as individuals but also with a collegial spirit.
So that is one of the bridge roles that the Church in Hong Kong can play; assisting in the formation of priests, religious and lay Catholics in the mainland.
Yes, also for lay Catholics. When I teach theology, I also emphasize what it means to be a Catholic. We baptize more than 6,000 people each year in Hong Kong, and we tell them that not only should they learn the Catechism and take one year and a half to be qualified to receive baptism, but also they should join a community or a small group to develop their spirit of communion.
We have to learn from the Early Church communities. If we read carefully the Acts of the Apostles Chapter 2:42-47, we can see there are three elements in the Early Church communities.
These three elements can be expressed with three Greek words: first, didache, meaning the teaching of the Apostles; second, koinonia, meaning the community; and third, diakonia, meaning service, to serve others with faith, particularly to serve the poor and the people in need.
If we only emphasize the first and the third of these three elements without the second – the community – something would be lacking. This vision is fundamental not only for Catholics but also for priests and bishops.
In the meantime, of course the Chinese do always care about face, and this always has positive and negative impacts. Saving face, from the positive side it means that China always wants to keep a good reputation; from the negative point of view it means that sometimes the Chinese Government is too stubborn on certain points where they think they are right, without deeper consideration of the opinions offered by the other sides. So you have always two aspects to interpret this face-saving.
Therefore you believe good formation can break the impasse and avoid illicit ordinations?
Yes. But if a candidate is a weak person, and judged by the Holy See as not a suitable person to be a bishop, but the Government chooses him as candidate, then the others in the local Catholic community should help him, pray for him, to step aside or to withdraw from the episcopal ordination.
In many cases it is not only the Government but it is also the individual candidate who is responsible. Many priests in China are influenced by secular values and the special status in society that being a bishop can give them.
That’s what Pope Benedict calls “careerism” and “opportunism”.
Yes. Unfortunately too many priests in China today are ambitious; they want to be bishops.
You seem to be putting more blame on the individual candidates than on the Government that pushes, almost forces them. You are saying that while the Government may have created the context, the situation, it is the individual priest who feels attracted, who wants those kinds of benefits that come with being a bishop?
Yes, I would emphasize that. I mean we should not blame the Chinese Government only.
As a cardinal, as adviser to the Pope, what would your message be to the Chinese authorities at this point?
First, I would try to tell the Chinese Government officials that dialogue is very important.
Secondly, through dialogue we can always achieve “win-win” situations, meaning without sacrificing our principles and their principles, we still can find solutions.
The third thing is I ask the Government to believe that our Catholic Church always asks each Catholic to be patriotic, to love his or her own country.
Therefore I would ask the Government to trust also in Catholic believers so that if they really enjoy full freedom, they can make more contributions to their own country, and China and its Government will enjoy a better reputation in the whole world. That would be a real “win-win” situation for the Chinese Government, for the country, and also for the Catholic believers in China.
This is the message that Pope Benedict tried to convey in his Letter of 2007, and also one that Pope John Paul II communicated earlier.
Yes, that is true.
There is, of course, the problem you mentioned earlier: the Patriotic Association. What future do you see for it?
I think if the Government still wants to keep these people, and keep the name (of the Association), the members of the Association should play a very low key role. They can be used as the agents or the members of social agencies, like Caritas organizations under the mandates of the local Bishops. That could be one of the ways out for them. But I don’t know whether they would accept that or not.
So you are saying that in relation to the Chinese, we must dialogue, there is no exit, this is the road we have to take.
Right, there is no exit, we must dialogue. I think that now China, including this Government, is playing a very important role in the international arena, therefore they have to appreciate many international values, and we consider some of their standpoints too. I think in the long run that China will change in very important ways.
Right now there is an impasse in relations between the Holy See and China. At the same time, Beijing has not forced through any more illicit ordinations since July 2011, but neither has it been willing to sit down at a table to talk through the outstanding problems. Sure, there are exchanges between the Holy See and China, but there isn’t any progress. Maybe as you say one needs patience.
I wish to comment on what you said earlier when you mentioned that Holy See-China relations have reached an impasse. I always remember that some devout Catholics said that when we reach an impasse, or a difficult situation, this could be a good chance for us to have a deeper understanding of the situation, and to find a solution.
A crisis at present could become an opportunity for the future. So whenever we meet such kinds of difficulties, we have to try to think more deeply and more broadly.
On the other hand the Chinese authorities have still got bishops in prison, and before going to the opening ceremony of the Olympics you very courageously wrote an article in L’Osservatore Romano in which you highlighted this fact, and you did so again recently.
In my Christmas letter of 2010, I said we have to be ‘shining stars’ (in today’s world) and I told the people, my people inside and outside Hong Kong, that we also find many ‘shining stars’ in China, not only those in prison – bishops, priests and Catholics but also ‘shining stars’ in society like Liu Xiaobo, the Nobel Peace Prize winner in 2010, and I said I hoped he will be released as soon as possible and enjoy full freedom.
And also those bishops who showed their unwillingness to be pushed to participate in the Eighth National Assembly of Catholic Representatives, in which the Patriotic Association and the so-called Bishops Conference also held their elections, which was held December 2010 in Beijing, I said they are also ‘shining stars’ in different degrees. I used my Christmas letter to send out such a message.
The underground Catholic community in China– the so-called underground Church – seems to be in a lot of difficulty these days. Its members are constantly under a lot of pressure, they are being enticed, pushed, detained and sometimes constrained to join the State recognized ‘open’ Church. What do you say to them?
I think we have to admire the underground communities and their spirit. Compared with the past, they have shown their openness to a certain degree; they have become more and more understanding than before. In the past, they attacked the open communities, now some of them will not do this. From their writings and the letters they have sent out, some of them show that their attitude has become moderate already.
I heard that after reading the Holy Father’s letter in 2007 some members of the underground communities – which are surviving in a separate way - even showed their openness toward the open Church community. They brought flowers to put on the altar in the chapel which is being used by the open Church. It was a symbolic act to show friendship, and it helped cut down tension.
So you see an evolution in the underground communities today?
A. Yes. However, China is huge, and varies from place to place, from person to person. I prefer to pick up positive examples to encourage people to learn from them.
John Paul II had great love for China and the Church in China. At the end of his life he was still ready to go there, even on a stretcher, if Beijing had invited him. You met him, what is your memory of him?
My first memory was when he took up his role as the Holy Father, at the beginning of his pontificate, he had a mention of China and the Catholics there.
A second memory was when Bishop Zen and I paid him a visit after being ordained bishops in Hong Kong. He told us that he prayed for the Church in China every day. And when we talked about the Church in China he was very attentive to what we were saying. This strongly reflected his attitude and his love for the Church in China.
Is that why you requested the Vatican to give you a relic of Blessed John Paul II to place in the Cathedral in Hong Kong?
That was one of the reasons, but we asked also because nowadays many more Chinese inside China enjoy permission to come to visit Hong Kong, as individuals or as communities. Every day thousands and thousands come. The Holy Father, John Paul II, wanted to visit China, and during his lifetime he could not visit, but now we have his relics – since November 2011 – and so he is now in China, and he can be touched by the Chinese!
Pope Benedict visited your Holy Spirit Study Centre when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger.
Yes, he came to Hong Kong for a seminar in 1993, at which Mother Teresa also spoke. Cardinal Wu who was then bishop asked me to drive Cardinal Ratzinger around Hong Kong during his visit. I was his chauffeur and brought him to see Chris Patten, the Governor of Hong Kong, showed him the scenery, took him to the seminary and told him about its history and explained its present situation. I also brought him to our centre, where he met some of the people working there.
And since he became Pope in 2005, you have met him several times.
Yes, at least once a year.
Pope Benedict seems really interested in China and especially the Church in China.
Yes, he is very interested. It is one of his priorities. He pays great attention to China and the Church there. This is my impression. Of course some people helped him to draft the Letter in 2007, but he also modified everything.
Now he has made you cardinal, what are you going to say to him?
I always thank him for his great love for the Church in China, and I will follow his guidelines, given in his Letter.
You know that Letter has two parts. Part I offers the basic structures of the Church and our bottom lines for the Church to deal with the Government. Part II deals with formation: formation of bishops, priests, the sisters and the lay people. This second part regarding formation and on-going formation is very important.
On the one hand, we can say that the Government does not understand all this. On the other hand, our people should receive sufficient formation and also on-going formation so that in the important moments they can stand firm on principles, and be more fully empowered to resist some temptations. That is the reason why we uphold the importance of formation.
If the Chinese authorities were to invite you to Beijing, will you go?
Well, it depends. I would welcome this. The place doesn’t have to be the capital Beijing or Shanghai. It could be Guangzhou where I received my primary education and served Mass.
So you’d like to visit Guangzhou, the church where you served Mass and the school where you first studied?
Yes. The school is still there, but it is not a Catholic school anymore. It’s next to the Cathedral where I served Mass as an altar boy.
Cardinal Tong was also interviewed by 30 GIORNI, which has carried out its own independent reporting on the Church in China by sending out its publisher, editors and correspondents there from time to time. I have not yet read the interview, but it is the basis for an article today in Corriere della Sera by Alberto Mello0ni:
A cardinal for the dialog with China
by Alberto Melloni
Translated from
March 13, 2012
In the China file - which has been on the agenda of Popes for more than seven ecnturies - Benedict XVI wrote a significant new page when he created the Archbishop of Hongkong, John Tong Hon, a cardinal.
It is a crucial nomination because his predecessor in Hong Kong, Cardinal Joseph Zen Ze-kiun, has been for years the advocate of a hard line of closure towards the government of China, so total as to have placed at risk the results, however, small, of the years of diplomacy carried out by Mons. Pietro Parolin for John Paul II.
By making Tong a cardinal and naming Cardinal Fernando Filoni earlier to head the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples [Filoni, a veteran Vatican diplomat who hadhserved in iraq and the Philippines, which is headquarters for the Vatican's diplomatic efforts with China]
the China dossier has two new protagonists who will be caryring out this diplomacy at least in the next decade.
[Melloni forgets to mention Archbishop Savio Hon Tai-fai, also from Hongkong, who is Filone'ss #2 man at Propaganda Fide!]
The Holy See's China position is well known, and recently, Cardinal Filoni reiterated it - not to close off dialog but to clearly lay out the foundations for such a dialog.
From the point of view of Propaganda Fide
[which is directly concerned with the China question since it is in charge of the Church's missionary activities, and China is perhaps the most significant mission land for the Church at this time in history], the political and ecclesiological problems linked to episcopal ordinations, which the Chinese government has taken to decide unilaterally without allowing the Vatican to exercise its canonical right to name bishops, remain unresolved.
And this cannot be defined by the generous but self-interested activism of movements and religious orders in China. Nor can it be ignored that in various cases (many or few, depending on your point of view), it has been possible to nominate bishops agreed upon by both the Vatican and Beijing, even if this may not always be clearly stated in the Annuario Pontificio.
Therefore - there could be nothing 'more Christian' - both Beijing and the Vatican should be attentive to Catholicism in China as it is now lived: a minority religion, yes, but which has 12 million observant Catholics going to Mass on Sundays. That's more than Italian Massgoers today.
To understand what this Church in China says of itself, one must read the very important interview given by Cartdinal Tong to Gianni Valente of
30 Giorni in its April 2012 issue which will be released tomorrow.
Tong's family were war refugees in macao during the Japanese occupation, and he was educated in the faith by his Catholic mother and Maryknoll missionaries. A young deacon at the time of Vatican II, he was ordained by Paul VI on the Feast of the Epiphany in 1966 - so he was among the very first 'Conciliar' priests. He took part in the 1985 consecration of the Archbishop of Shanghai, Aloysius Jin, then 'illegitimate' but eventually accepted by Rome.
During the recent pre-consistory meeting of the College of Cardinals, he described the situation in the Chinese Church in three words - 'Surprising, difficult, possible'.
Surprising for its remarkable growth: One-third of China's 3,500 priests are younger than 50. In the 10 seminaries recognized by the government and the six that are not, there are 1,400 priests in formation today. And the number of faithful, which was quadrupled in the past 30 years, has apparently not reached its maximum.
Difficult because of the controversy over the choice of bishops: an authority which in Christian lands before the modern era, Rome had shared with their crowned monarchs, and which in the China of the future, must be the result of a qualitative bilateral selection of candidates.
Possible, because the experience of persecution and conflict (of which Mons. Jin is a striking example), indicates that the course of the Gospel in China is only beginning and that it will have much to teach the Church, whose task is not to "change the political system" but to announce Jesus Christ.
Tong defines himself as a 'moderate', open to 'dialog', although he is faithful to the ecclesiology of communion, the reason for which each bishop becomes a member of the episcopal college, and as such, is neither a Vatican prefect, as Pius XII pointed out, nor the vicar of any government.
But Tong is not indulgent of those who would denigrate a Catholicism that does not fit into their preconceived schemes, or who would arrogate the power to declare who is a friend or an enemy of the Pope without any authority to do so.
This unhealthy tendency has caused damage not just in China.
The news leaks or rumors coming from unfaithful ecclesiastics, badly formed and chosen even worse, but who have caused agitation in the news in recent years, are perhaps linked to such an indulgence in a way much worse than it seems.
[Exactly what 'rumors' does Melloni mean? Is it the narrative promoted by Cardinal Zen that the 'underground' Church should continue to keep apart from the 'official Church' - despite what Benedict XVI's 1977 letter urged - because the latter is hopelessly compromised? On the other hand, there are occasional news reports from news agencies that there are dioceses and parishes where a 'peaceful coexistence' between the two communities - in the spirit of Benedict XVI's letter - has been possible.]
That a Chinese cardinal should now point out the great horizons of the Gospel in time must be considered a balm for these wounds and bruises to the Body of Christ in China.
[Modificato da TERESA BENEDETTA 14/03/2012 03:34]